12-12-2007, 09:53 PM | #31 |
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Oh, come on.
Amazon is not telling you you can't read non-Amazon documents on their Kindle... that's why they allow you to read other formats. Also, converting a document you own from one format to another, for your own use, constitutes "fair use." mrkai, you're just trying to pick a fight. |
12-13-2007, 12:36 AM | #32 | |
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Am I?
Quote:
Is it "fair use" if you retain multiple copies of this document that can be read in different places simultaneously by different people, Steve? We'll see Since Amazon via mobipocket controls the licensing of the software and whatnot that allows sellers to drm their books with mobi-fu... We'll see won't we when all of these mobi booksellers have to inform you that "unfortunately, we cannot accept the PID supplied. Thank you for understanding." This PID would be in the very distinct and easily identifiable Kindle format, with the nifty * in it An you should read the TOS for the Kindle. "Enhancements" and "Augmentations" are not defined in such a way to exclude slipping commercial drm'd content not licensed or sold by amazon onto the Kindle. And just like drm reversing for ink cartridges was struck down even tho it was circumvention for interoperability, so do does this fall under that shadow. I'm not picking a fight. I am making sure that people are crystal clear on the position. It seems that you like to have it both ways. Its fine to screw amazon if the author/publisher is getting paid, is it? Ok, that last line there could be construed as fight-pickery -K Last edited by mrkai; 12-13-2007 at 12:48 AM. |
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12-13-2007, 01:23 AM | #33 |
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MobiPocket Reader already does this?
Um, doesn't MobiPocket Reader already tell you what your Kindle's PID is? If I plug my Kindle into my USB port with MobiPocket Reader running, Reader auto-detects the Kindle and adds it to my list of devices. If I then click the 'properties' button for the Kindle, the PID displayed in the dialog matches the PID generated by the kindlepid.py python script.
The kindlefix.py script is very handy though! |
12-13-2007, 01:30 AM | #34 | |
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Quote:
I found no restriction listed in the TOS that says you can't put or use random DRM software on the device. Indeed, in the part where it defines its use of the term "digital content" it explicitly restricts it to that sold in the Kindle Store: The Kindle Store. The Kindle Store enables you to download, display and use on your Device a variety of digitized electronic content, such as books, subscriptions to magazines, newspapers, journals and other periodicals, blogs, RSS feeds, and other digital content, as determined by Amazon from time to time (individually and collectively, "Digital Content"). Thus, none of the TOS referring to the term "digital content" applies to content obtained elsewhere, whether DRM'ed or not. When such terms are expressly defined with quotes, as is done in the TOS, they obtain the narrow definitions in the document instead of any other meaning.
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12-13-2007, 03:06 AM | #35 |
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Alright. First there is: Use of Digital Content.
You are not allowed to use any Digital Content not authorized by Amazon on the device: Notice that in the Digital Store/Kindle Store section that Amazon get to pick how this is defined..."from time to time. You are not allowed to "augment" or "circumvent" any part of the Kindle, the Device or the Software. Note that you are also not allowed to "substitute" any digital rights management functionality of the Device or Software, either... ...and that is exactly what is going on. Defined any way you please, this is overriding a specific built-in part of the "Service" as well as the "Software". The Kindle doesn't allow for reading DRM Mobi. Its NOT ALLOWED. Amazon made it clear that this was not allowed by *not* having them work, didn't they? Further they changed the extension and tweaked the internals of mobi files. This was not a bug or an oversight on Amazon's part; it was a conscious act. The Kindle is allowed to read/display un-DRM'd mobi files. These ain't them The usage of these transformed files is as such, a violation of these Terms in both spirit and letter. Also, because the DMCA is such a shoddy law, it runs afoul of this too, and here is why. It has language that forbids not just decryption, but circumvention of a drm system in and of itself. This tools facilitates unauthorized use of unauthorized content. "Fair use" has nothing to do with it. Many people figured out awhile ago to allow people to actually exercise their fair use rights, in the face of the DMCA they have to violate the law. That's what makes it so funny in an "uncomfortable laugh" kind of way: you'd be NOT violating the Amazon and Kindle TOS if you actually stripped the drm and made the things straight .mobi, as the Kindle has no restrictions on these. Of course, doing that, you violate the TOS of whomever you bought it from, and the law. *NOICE* *SHWEET* Welcome to a new kind of dumb I will call up Amazon tomorrow and ask them what they think Last edited by mrkai; 12-13-2007 at 03:18 AM. |
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12-13-2007, 03:19 AM | #36 | |
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Thanks for the details, mrkai. I don't agree though when you say "Fair use" has nothing to do with it. According to Wikipedia:
Quote:
Sure if a user agrees on Amazon terms (which are to be questioned too), this agreement may take precedence over fair use rights. Also, it may be questioned whether Amazon even has the right to control how I use the Kindle, given that I bought the device (I didn't rent it nor do I have a subscription plan with Amazon) -- legally, it's my own device! Nobody can sue me when I use it as a brick for the roof of my house; nor do I believe could anyone sue me if I put legal content on it, though content that was not sanctioned by Amazon. |
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12-13-2007, 04:00 AM | #37 |
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This is exactly why the whole issue is a New Kind of Stupid
BTW, *never* quote the Wikipedia as an authoritative source on anything That said, people that use this tool are drawing a line in the sand of legal/moral/ethical digital content. Many people like to say how cut and dry it all is...The Law is The Law....Ethics...Respect...you name it. I have read many threads that I haven't even bothered to respond to because many of those that post "know right from wrong" even when such things are more like "which right is wrong today"? If you want to take your Kindle and beat it to bits, that's fine. if you want to use it as a cake platter, hurrah for you. I won't get into the really nasty and gross things you are perfectly allowed to do with your Kindle. The thing is you own the plastic and the fiddly bits. The stuff that makes it go...you aren't allowed to diddle with because it doesn't belong to you. if you want to read DRM'd content on it that Amazon doesn't sell and do an end-run around this, then you are hard-bitten criminal scum, a godless immoral hedonist, a hood, a crook, a liar or a thief with no honor or decency. And you are robbing Amazon of potential revenue by NOT buying a Kindle authorized copy/version of the book for use on the Kindle. Nice, huh? Last edited by mrkai; 12-13-2007 at 04:03 AM. |
12-13-2007, 04:01 AM | #38 |
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However, "Digital Content" referred to in the TOS remains restricted to what is available from the Kindle Store and, yes, they are saying they may change what sort of content they offer in the Kindle Store from time to time and you may not use content from the Kindle Store if not authorized to do so. Unless they change the TOS, the current one does not apply to "digital content" not sold from the Kindle Store (because that's how they defined it).
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12-13-2007, 04:18 AM | #39 | |
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Uh-huh...
Quote:
We'll see. Like I said, I'm calling Amazon Legal in Seattle in the AM when I get up. I think tho, it is pretty clear. DRM'd content for the Kindle is in Amazon's format. No one else is authorized to license content in this format. No one else is licensed to create this format. Amazon doesn't even supply tools to make this format on the desktop for Amazon customers...do they? No one outside of Amazon and its authorized agents (who are they?) have any rights or licenses regarding Amazon's file format whatsoever. Its all about the implicit and explicit (yet again) and um, the Amazon format and its decryption is a part of The Software, the Service and the Device. The only (heheh) legal way I am aware of to get an AWZ file of any kind is from Amazon with or without DRM. So...what are you saying? Its your right to use unlicensed software for a format that Amazon doesn't even provide a desktop executable tool for...because you bought some entirely different thing from somebody else?!?! This is preposterous!! Scandalous!! A blight upon mankind and a smack in the face of all that is Good and Right!!! |
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12-13-2007, 07:06 AM | #40 |
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Not true. Fictionwise is selling the Kindle format as well.
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12-13-2007, 07:10 AM | #41 | |
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But only content that isn't DRM protected:
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12-13-2007, 07:14 AM | #42 | |
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Quote:
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12-13-2007, 08:00 AM | #43 | |
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Does Amazon have another TOS for the email service?
Quote:
I'm going to assume there isn't a "no redistribution" clause in the Terms of the email conversion service. Is this outlined in the Kindle manual somewhere? |
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12-13-2007, 08:29 AM | #44 |
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This is absolutely brilliant, igorsk - well done! It gives owners of previous-purchased Mobi books a way to read their content on the Kindle, which can only benefit Kindle sales. It may be a technical breach of the Kindle TOS to do so, but Amazon would have to be crazy to object to it.
This tool is definitely NOT illegal in any way, shape, or form. Well done again! |
12-13-2007, 09:16 AM | #45 | |
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Not "illegal" because you agree...
Quote:
What a bunch of hypocrites around here! By sanctioning the use of this tool you are advocating circumvention of the Amazon Kindle system, causing them to lose potential revenue on lost sales via the Kindle store, sales that support the infrastructure of the system. You are "stealing" from Amazon and the Kindle Store! A mobi copy of a book and an AWZ copy of a book are *not the same*...just like an mp3 and a cd aren't the "same"...or a paperback and the hardback aren't the "same"... Huh?! Furthermore the tool is a result of reverse engineering, something forbidden to do or assists in ANY WAY in the Kindle TOS. It doesn't matter if you can "justify" it...it's "wrong" to do. Its OK to violate a covenant that you expressly agree to with your purchase and use and its explicit and implied restrictions because "you feel like it" now? Blurring that "right and wrong" line a bit now, aren't we? I know there isn't a DMCA in the UK, but here we have you advocating unlicensed software, circumvention of a DRM system (which is forbidden by the DMCA...its NOT JUST DECRYPTION and has nothing to do with SHARING. That's why is so BAD!) making unlicensed copies of a digital purchase...sheesh. But is OK because somebody *besides* Amazon gets paid?!?! Its OK because "no one is doing anything morally wrong" even tho they run shy of a license AND a (horribly bad) law? What...the...hell. |
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